In this enlightening episode, Matt Feret and Kinē Corder delve into the emotional intricacies surrounding wealth. They touch upon the often unspoken challenges of affluence, societal pressures, ingrained financial behaviors, and the importance of financial therapy. Their conversation serves as a beacon for those aspiring to achieve financial success and those grappling with the complexities of wealth.
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"Financial decisions often have underlying emotional reasons." - Kinē Corder
"While sudden wealth sounds like a dream, it's about the mental, emotional, and sometimes even social dynamics that come with it." - Kinē Corder
"When investing in friends, it should be from the overflow and not the primary resources." - Kinē Corder
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You're explaining there's a lot more therapy behind that because there are many, many more emotions in other areas beyond just that whole, you know, anxiety when someone, you know, the market drops 500 points in a day. So give me a joke and say, uh, when the market drops, that's the only sale a woman doesn't like, it's like, it's on sale.
What are you doing? Usually be running to the store. Very good point. Hello everyone, this is Matt Feret, author of Prepare for Medicare and Prepare for Social Security Insiders Guidebooks and Online Course Training Series. Welcome to another episode of the Matt Feret Show, where I interview insiders and experts To help light a path to successful living in midlife retirement and beyond.
Kena, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me. How are you doing, Matt? I'm doing great. Thanks for asking me. I think you might be the first guest that started it that way. Aw, see, I care. You do . Thank you. I feel it. Thank you. They say, they say they don't ask you how you're doing because they don't really care.
But you do. I do. I do. I've been known to care. I am well, thank you for asking. So tell everybody what you do, how long you've been doing it, and how you help people. So I am Kanae Corder, National Certified Counselor specializing in financial therapy for the wealthy. I work a lot with athletes, entertainers, public figures, but I also work with people who are changing or transitioning in life.
And a lot of times that's Retirement. Um, I, I help people. I like to say I help people with the problems money can't fix. So that's usually their emotions. And so, so we can have a great discussion on that. I've been doing this about 12 years now. I was a financial advisor with Morgan Stanley Ameriprise.
People would argue in my office. And then I'd say, uh, I'm not equipped for this conversation. And then later I went to back to school, got my master's in clinical mental health counseling, and I merged the two together to become a financial therapist. Oh, that's, I mean, that's, that sounds pretty cool. I don't think I've, I didn't think I knew that was a thing, a financial therapist.
So tell me, how does that, how does someone know if they need, or how do you get introduced to people for financial therapy and, and tell me more about what it is. Yeah. So for usually people come to me referred. Nobody is technically, I don't think I have to search, but I don't think anybody's Googling. Do I need a financial therapist?
Although I did recently write a blog about how to know if you do. Um, one of the things that I like to tell. Advisors or agents or, um, attorneys to start to look for is the repeat, the repetition, the habits, and usually they're maladaptive and, and they're the ones that cost the portfolio money. And it's like, ah, if only I could stop doing this.
then I could grow or preserve my money more. And they don't usually feel like they have control. So when I say that, that probably sounds like an addiction. It could be a substance. Not always the case, especially for like your clients. It may be a child that's codependent and they can't let them. Launch.
It's like, get out of here. You know, no, they got to take care of them. And it's like, oh, that's eking away at your performance. Cause we thought you're going to be able to put more in by now. And you're not able to do that. So a lot of times it has to do with the emotions, but you're not going to as a, as an advisor or as the attorney, you may not see the emotions.
However, we are going to talk about how they do make their advisors. They're therapists. Um, you may not see the emotions, but what you will see are the maladaptive habits. And you're like, I'm pretty sure I told you not to do that. And then you did it. Right. Or you'll say, I thought we talked about this and you said, Oh, this was, but this was your plan.
Why are we doing this? This is what you said. You're playing. Yeah, I know. But then it's like. Alrighty, uh, yeah, I guess we're going this way then, you know, so when you start to see that, that's when you know, okay, we got to get a financial therapist in here. Um, and that's really in general how, you know, but there may be other, we were talking this week about a couple who the man 20 years and he's remarried and, um, he has to turn on his social security for his ex wife, but then they're going to pause it and, you know, keep going.
That doesn't affect the new wife at all, but emotionally it does. She's like, no, she didn't say that, but she's like,
I didn't want you to have to cut out when you, when you said that. So, uh, yeah, but we know what you meant. Yeah. So she didn't say that, but inside she's like, why do I have to be, why do I have to care for her? Which it doesn't affect her at all. Like you can explain this way better than I can, but emotionally it affects her.
And then he's in the middle and he's like, yeah, I kind of did promise her for. Better or worse and I take care of her and all of that stuff. And she did raise our kids and yeah, I made a promise. The kid go back on it. You know, that's where he stands. And he's pretty matter of fact, he's like, look, we just got to do it.
You know, she's like, so those are situations, the gamut. But that's just to give you a little bit of an example. Yeah, no, I, and I'm glad you gave that example because when you first said it, right, financial therapy, and when you first started talking, I was like, Oh, that makes sense. Like, um, you know, it's the old, uh, uh, you know, buy, buy high, sell low problem, which is when the market's going great, you know, humans tend to go, Oh, let me jump on that money train.
Uh, and then when the market dives, people end up. selling. Oh, let me get off this, this train that's headed off the cliff. But, and then you read all sorts of things like, no, no, no, you know, Warren, the old Warren Buffett, sell high. And that's the, that's kind of what I, you know, first started with, um, which is out there a lot, but you're explaining there's a lot more.
Yep. Therapy behind that because there are many, many more emotions in other areas beyond just that whole, you know, anxiety when someone, you know, the market drops 500 points in a day. So give me some. Yeah, I used to joke and say, uh, um, when the market drops, that's the only sale a woman doesn't like. It's like it's on sale.
What are you doing? Usually be running to the store. It's a very good point. Give me, um, help me understand some more things. So I get that emotion. And I think people, I mean, I don't know, I think everybody probably does that unless you're a, you're an active trader or whatever, but, and you mentioned kind of some, some, uh, some family stuff in there, but what, what else in terms of therapy, is it, is it spending?
You mentioned, uh, a kid that failed to launch and, you know, um, give me some other examples of, of, of some behavior. Um, that is common or that you deal with that, you know, you, someone like you, or you might step in and go, Hey, let's unpack this from a, from a therapeutic standpoint. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to try and break this down into a couple of areas that we talk about a lot.
So one area, part of your question, you're asking about. The money personality, which we call your money mentality. And a lot of people talk about money mindset, especially today is very, you know, trendy term money mindset. When you get to get your money mindset together, and we say mindset is conscious brain and conscious brain is how you think.
Or talk about money mentality is subconscious brain or even unconscious brain, and that is how you relate or behave around money. And then the other thing, if you're a financial advisor, professional listening to this, then the five areas that we talk about are earn. Grow, protect, gift, and enjoy your money.
And we call this the money cycle. And when you look at, okay, so my client is good at earning and then they might be good at one of these other ones. And they don't necessarily have to be good at earning because my savers in the, in the personalities. They may not make a great living, but they will put away their money.
But if they're a saver, they're probably not good at it. And so that the grow area of the money cycle, you're probably putting a lot of energy trying to manage their emotions around the growth part. Or if you have somebody like that parent who can't let their kid launch and they're not protecting their wealth.
So if you can look at those areas. First, look at where they are deficient. Okay, they got the earning down. They might even have the growth down, but then they got this leaky faucet. They keep giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, which is not protecting their wealth. And, and maybe they're never going to get to enjoy it.
So you've got to point out to them those three areas. So once you look at that, that is going to tell you first, let's address the fact that You, you're gifting is out of line. And when I say a line, I really mean like alignment, right? You, you, you already know, like your portfolio, how much you need. Oh, I need this, a percentage here, that percentage there.
It's similar. When you looking at the money cycle, I need you not to be giving. 20, 30%, like we allowed for 10% and you're doing 20, 30%. And I know this is not a charity. This is your child, but you're still giving, and it's not adding to your portfolios actually subtracting from your retirement, which means you're going to have to retire.
You're going to. I'm going to do two years later, three years later, whatever the number is now conscious brain. They're going to be like, yeah, no, I don't want to do two or three years later. What'd you tell me I needed to do. Okay. I'm going to follow that. And then four months in, they're like, but my kid wants to move to a new apartment.
And we, we're going to go ahead and buy a place because we don't want them to rent. And what are we talking about here? Right. And so once, once you see those decisions, it's like, okay, here's what's happening. Talk to me about. And that's the sentence that I talk to me about. And most advisors don't really want to be a therapist.
They did not go into the, they love running money. They don't like managing emotions. They like managing money. So, but you're going to have to say, talk to me about what's happening with you and Brandon. You know, it, it sounds like. You just can't let them go. And then if they go, they're like, yes, you need to talk to the financial therapist.
Because that's what it looks like. They're like, oh gosh, finally. Yes. Yeah. That's what happened. Yeah. Thanks for putting that into words for me. Cause they haven't said it. They haven't said it, but you see it and you just, you're able to articulate it for them. You're going to see that weight lift off of them.
These are the problems that money can't fix. You can have all the money in the world, but if you can't manage your emotions, it's not going to mean anything. I, um, I have, uh, I have a son. And, uh, recently I took him on a, uh, on a, on his first kind of guy's trip, the fishing trip. And one of my friends came on the trip and my son was having a conversation with my friend.
And, um, he was like, uh, I don't know how it came up. My son was like, no, I love thrifting. I love going to, you know, reuse it shops and being. You know, I'll say the word cheap, just inexpensive. Like I like going to get a t shirt for 4. I don't like shopping out there. And, and my buddy says, Oh, your dad's rubbing off on you, Mr.
Frugal himself. And my son goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not. It's all me. And he just, my, my friend just laughed. He's like, you think it's just you and the point or question I'm making point I'm making or question I'm asking is. How much of this is how you were raised and the environment with, uh, within which you were raised, I'm, I'm going to guess it's there.
And that takes it back to the money mentality types is what we call them. So your personality, a lot of it is like a combination of society, you know, your parents, your culture, because depending on your culture is going to be different. And that's why I say subconscious and unconscious, there's all sometimes these.
Cultural norms that you can't even imagine. I was listening to a podcast and one of the, the guests on there, he's a multimillionaire, but he cannot take on debt because he's Pakistani. And, and it is just taboo. You just don't do it. Even if he says, I know, I know, I know. I know I could get it cheap. I could do it.
I could leverage. It's probably costing me thousands of dollars. I can't, you know, buy another business because I won't leverage it. I got to wait till I have the cash. I know. I know. I know. It's just the way it's just the way we do it. Right. It feels like he has absolutely no choice. He said, it's just the way it is.
I can't take on that. I'm Pakistani. Right. Like those two just go together. Don't try and talk me out of it. I'm going to continue to be Pakistani. And so that unconscious, it's just an unconscious tie to that. Right. And then there's the layer of his parents, because maybe if he would have seen his parents go against that, then he may have gone against that, but because they stuck to it as well, it was really ingrained in him on two levels.
And then if society says now debt is bad as well, Oh, I've seen too many people go, you know, go to the poor house or go bankrupt, trying to take on debt. I'm not doing it. I don't want that to happen to me. So those are the three layers usually that you're dealing with. And those are your conscious brain, your subconscious brain and your unconscious brain that are working.
You know how they say. We work with 10% of our brains or we use 10% of our brains. And I know lately they've been neuroscientists have been divulging that myth. And when they talk about that 10%, that's conscious brain that they're actually talking about. And so really. And in the neuroscience area, we are at about 5% conscious brain is about 5%.
So 95% of what your clients are doing is just autopilot is subconscious thinking is what their parents told them to do or not do. Because just like your son took on some of your traits, he could have. Shun those. He could have said, I'm not going to be like my dad. I'm not going to, in fact, I'm going to be so like my dad, not like my dad.
I'm going to splurge. I'm going to be opulent even. Right. And so that sometimes is what happens in a money mentality type where you will be exactly the opposite of what your parents were. Cause it just felt too constraining or it felt. Um, unsafe for you. So let me say this before we go on to whatever next conversation we're going to go.
It all has to do with safety. It has to do with safety. And just so you know, safety is love. So you want to stay alive and you want to be loved. Those are the only two reasons humans do anything. The brain goes towards familiar and away from unfamiliar. A familiar is safe, unfamiliar is unsafe, and it doesn't realize it says, okay, I'm keeping you safe, but it doesn't realize it's keeping you stuck wherever you are, and you can't go to that next level.
And the brain is like. My job is not to go to the next level. My job is to keep you alive. I don't know what you want from me. That's what the brain says. It's like, oh, but it's doing a great job. It's doing an awesome job keeping you alive, but alive does not mean thrive. So those are, you know, we have opposing goals.
The brains. Yeah. That's the goal is to stay alive where your heart, you know, or you want to have some pleasure. You want to make an impact. You want to be significant, whatever the things are, but you can't do that because you are focused on staying alive. That's that makes so much sense, but I've never thought of it that way.
So do you, um, I'm going to, I'm going to just break this down to three categories and I'd like to understand how you, uh, what you've seen in these three categories. So I'm going to, these are very broad. Okay. Let's just say, and I'll, and I'll, I don't want to use the word class, like low class, middle class, high class, but, uh, let's say, um, um, not a lot of money.
Okay. We call them fate. We call it phase or you're in that. Yeah. Cause you know, you, everybody says middle class upper middle class rich. I know we've kind of gotten away from all those characterizations. Let's just say for my brain, cause I don't know the, you know, the correct verbiage, but let's go didn't grow up with money, grew up, you know, mom, dad working three jobs, You know, scarcity mindset, I guess, and then middle class ish, kind of in the doing fine, you know, went to went on vacation to, you know, the lake once a year, twice a year, but but not a lot of extra, you know, money to throw around.
And then upper class, which is, you know, abundance. And in those three categories of kind of low, medium and high, do you see some patterns in each of those or any of those? Yes, absolutely. So one thing I want to say first is I usually see that there are four because the middle is a lot bigger than we tend to think it is.
So a good portion of the people I work with make somewhere between one and three million. And then there are the outliers, you know, a subset that make over, I would say 1 to 10 million. Let's say that. And then over 10 million, it sometimes it could go up to 500 million. That's the highest number. I would say of somebody I've actually worked with.
And then on the other side, you're looking at people who come and talk, who can afford to go to a financial therapist because it is a premium service. It's a luxury sort of item. And so you would maybe look at 250 to a million. So to me, that describes middle class. And upper middle class, 250 is middle class.
Now, when I was growing up in Chicago, you were just, if you got to six figures, you were rich. Oh yeah, for sure. I can remember thinking as a teenager, you know, and if I make a hundred thousand dollars a year, I am loaded like that Lamborghini poster on my wall. That's mine. Exactly. Yep. Yep. So that, and then the people I typically don't work with, but they still exist.
And we do need to talk about them as they make less than six figures and they are somehow making it work. Data are not always the people with the lack emotions, which is what these days people call them limiting beliefs or something like that. And so we call them lack emotions and lack emotions tend to be around not enough.
Now you can make. Less than a hundred thousand dollars a year. Don't live in New York, but, and you can live and be fine. You can have things, you can go on vacation once a year, you can plan out. Now, if you go lower than that, and you're making like 20, 000 a year, you're, you're Brandon living with your parents, basically.
So. There are a lot more categories now because money has just changed now. Billionaire is what everybody is trying to be. Millionaire is no longer sexy. It's like, millionaire, is that all? You got a million. You know, there's a real long gap between 1 million and 1 billion. 999 more million bucks between that number and the other, you know, the M and the B.
Yeah. Yeah. And we try to ignore that. That is the case. But a lot of the, the, and a lot of times it's the men, um, that I'm talking to about that gap between, okay, I made 10 million. I just want to get to a billion. I'm like, Okay. Okay. That's 90 more. Yeah. That is the milestone. So, so there are a lot of categories.
And what I find that our comment are. Fear based emotions and fear based emotion. It's really. Uh, around that survival. It is really the fear of the unknown. However, we all have the fear of unknown, no matter what area or what stage or phase we are in when it comes to our finances. If you are that hundred millionaire and you're spending a hundred and Two million, then you're still going to be in fear, unknown.
How am I going to keep this up? This leverage, I'm too leveraged. I'm too, you know, the market cannot crash. I need it to go up, up, up, up, right. You're going to be in that fear mode, the fear of the unknown, and you're going to feel out of control. But that happens most when you are poor and you just don't have enough money.
Um, however, we all fear. The unknown that some of the other emotions that you'll see in the fear based emotions are like the, the fear of being taken advantage of. That's a big one for my wealthy clients. And many of them self sabotage because they don't want to be taken advantage of. So they get in their own way or they tend to attract takers because they're just so fearful that it's like, somehow they attract the takers into their life.
So they sit there, you know. I think that sorry to interrupt you on that. I know you had more points to talk about. But yeah, that's a that's a scary thing. I would think if I had a lot of money and a lot of people knew about it. How do I know who's my friend now? And not just friends because they, you know, want me to invest in their business or hanging on to me because I got I got that Lamborghini on the wall.
Yeah, that that's a real thing. How do people give me money How do people make that transition? Like if, you know, you're doing well, you say like, you know, I got a bunch of rental properties. It doesn't even have to be, you know, 10 million bucks. I mean, if you're doing well, what are some of the emotions around that when you came from not doing well and all of a sudden you do?
So there's some, survivor's remorse is one of the things that come up where when you do do well, and then people watch that happen. You feel, especially in African American community, you got to keep it real, right? That's why a lot of the basketball players keep their friends that they had when they were living in the ghetto.
And they're like, no, I got to keep my friends. You can grow, you can grow, you can grow up. And if they're not growing, then they do need to get left behind. It's not your fault that you grew. And when I say grew, you might grow personally, but also professionally. And so, but people. Because of the love part of that, right?
It's survival, survival and love. Those are the two reasons why the brain is moving forward. So the love part of that, they can't leave their friends behind. They want to bring them with them, even if it's a detriment to their livelihood. And that's because they are familiar. So there's one side of that where people are like, I got to figure out how to bring all these people with me to not be.
Shunned because I have money, not be only liked because I have money. So, but in doing that, they tend to use their money to get the love, to, to keep people around. And so they do the opposite. Like, I don't want to be loved just because I have money, but this is the only way I know how to keep them around.
So then I do it. And now. At the end, I toggle through a lot of the emotions because they're going to toggle through lack based, they're going to toggle through lust based, and they're going to get to lonely based emotions. And they are going to look up and they're going to be like, I have no idea who's really here.
Does this woman really love me? Do these friends really care about me? Wait, he did. Kind of look at my wife a little strange and I'm maybe, yeah, maybe he's trying to be me. Oh, okay. I see what's happening here. Like, so those are some of the things that go through when it's lonely based emotion, you start to question a lot of the things that are happening around you.
Sometimes I call this a midlife crisis. And in that midlife crisis, you realize most of these people do not care about me. They are not asking me how I'm doing today. I'm just saying, um, most of these people do not care about me. And nor do they not care about aside from them not caring about me, they are actually preying on me.
So that's two different things. So some people are just around because it's fun because it, it looks good. Oh, I'm, if I can associate with Matt, I look good. And then there's the second layer of, I'm going to take what Matt has. Right. And that feels extremely lonely. Yeah, I'm sitting there imagining that in my life and it does, it feels scary.
I mean, that doesn't, I don't want that. It's almost like, I don't, I mean, I'm, I think everybody listening is maybe old enough, but if not, that's, that's more money, more problems. Yes. Okay. I'm glad you said that. So more money, more problems is a sentence that you hear very often. However, I like to say, right.
Yeah, exactly. It was like, Oh yeah, biggie. Thanks for pointing that out. But we could also look at it as more money, different problems, because a lot of those old problems that you used to have before when you didn't have money, those are gone. So you don't have more because those are not there anymore.
You can pay for those and get those out the way. You just have different ones and they're heavier. So that it feels like more problems. So I like to say more problems. More money, different problems or more money, heavier problems. And the heaviness again, is that's when, you know, you need a financial therapist when the problems are too heavy for you to lift alone.
That makes a lot of sense. Um, I want to talk about two things in that same vein. Uh, one is. Instant and the next is gradual. So in the instant question, uh, you, me, a lot of people have read these news stories, you know, this couple won the lottery and seven years later, they were bankrupt, right? This massive influx of cash that is life changing, but in an even smaller way, um, if you have an inheritance, that's a lump sum you didn't expect, or you did life changing one time event.
Talk to me about the emotions and when financial therapy needs or should come in around there. Yep. This is so complex, but we look at it very simply. It's like, oh, they had money and now they don't, you know, but there's a lot that happened in between. And so one, we're looking at what this will go back to my set.
This is when my set really is true. How do they think about money and they could conscious brain thing money is here for me to have fun. That is money's job in my life. And if that is the case, if they're only thinking about the enjoy part, when they do receive a lump sum, that is where they're going to put it.
If they do in their mindset, the way they think about money is, Oh, money needs to go into all of these different areas or buckets or whatever you call them. And they're like, okay, so I have to have some for here and some for there and some for there. And I need to have a trusted advisor. That I can talk to that I can make financial decisions with, but if they don't know how to make decisions, period dot, they're not going to know how to make money decisions.
So some of it goes back to that. Are you a good decision maker? Who taught you to make decisions? How, what is your decision making process? Oh, you don't have one. Well, no wonder you have no more money because you didn't have a decision making process. And. When you get money, it doesn't come with a, oh, here's a decision making process to go with your lottery ticket.
No, they didn't get that manual. So nothing changed in their life except for their economic status. So now the economic status changed, but they. They didn't change their beliefs, their subconscious beliefs. They did not change even their conscious. So the money's going to go away just as fast as it came because they, nothing else changed.
So when they get that lump sum of money, then they have to then say, okay, stop. I can't keep doing things the same way I've done before, or I can't go the opposite. Cause that's what happens sometimes too. Well, I've been holding on, you know, eking away. And now, now I got money. It's time for me to live. So sometimes people go exactly the opposite of what they've been doing all this time.
And that, that pause doesn't usually happen. It is. Automatic you go here right into subconscious brain, and then you start taking action and you don't pause sometimes until it's almost gone. You look up and there's a lot less zeros in that bank account than it was when the lump sum came, but also another emotion that I see a lot.
Cause I, I, I, I really like working with. Uh, new money, they have a unique set of problems than old money does, but I really like working with new money. And one of the new money challenges is inheritance. And there's a lot of emotions there. Like maybe you inherited this from your mother or your father, and you're not sure if you should do what you want to do with this money or what you think.
They would have wanted you to do and parents, as you're listening to this, if, if, if you're thinking, what, why am I doing this? Right? You have an idea in your mind of what your children should do with the inheritance is the legacy that you're going to leave them, but they also have. An idea. And there has to be room in that idea for them to live it their way.
You can, you know, have an instrument in place and the state planet that slows down. So, and you also can think about getting them some financial therapy before they get their inheritance or along now. Right. But so that, so that they're already prepared when that money comes to them. So some of your values do get instilled because your values are going to be void of the money is not going to have the values attached to it.
And I know you tried to raise them to have your same values, but you may not have happened that way because they are their own people. So when you look at the actual numbers, right, the. Dollars, they are going to have a certain amount of emotions, whether it is grief, whether it is doubt, you know, it might be desperation.
Uh, one of my most memorable clients, he inherited money from his father. He did not want the business. He inherited the business and the money, and they weren't separate. He had to run the business if he wanted the money. And so he felt manipulated because he knew his father knew he didn't want to run that business.
So it was a lot of emotion there. Yeah. That's a lot to unpack. I would imagine, especially if that just gets dumped on you. Um, I mean, great problem to have. If you think it's a great problem to have, it's a horrible problem to have. If you don't want that business or want that really complex. Exactly. So let me ask the second part of that question is what if it's gradual?
What are the, you know, you, you know, uh, I'll just, I'll make up a scenario, you know, you, you, you grow up middle class and, and you go to school and you start a business and over time it becomes successful. So you're looking at this kind of graph that, that's a, that gradually goes up. We don't have this kind of hockey stick spike of a one timer.
What are some of the common emotions and, and money emotions? behind that type of gradual, you find yourself in your forties, fifties, sixties. Um, and it is time to transition away from that business or it is time to retire from that executive position that you've worked so hard for. You climb that ladder and your wealth has gone.
Gradually. What are some of the different emotions around that scenario? Well, two things I definitely want to talk about is one when it happens gradually, it's a lot less obvious. What the emotions are because they're so ingrained. So I'll give you an example. There is a multimillionaire and his wife sends him to the store to buy red peppers.
She's cooking and she's like, on your way home, go get the red peppers. He went, he goes to the grocery store, he picks up green peppers. He brings them home. He gives her the green peppers. She's like, I specifically say red, he said, the red ones are too expensive. You totally just described me. I mean, not the millions part, but that's, that would be, that would be a map move for sure.
You can afford red peppers. I would for sure do that. You just absolutely keep going. Yeah. So the, because it's a, it's a gradual, they just hold on to those behaviors and those beliefs. And it was nothing that happened that made red peppers now affordable, because along the way. The whole time you were just trying to maintain that status, right?
That phase that you were in. And so you were taking the beliefs with you along the way, and they were getting more ingrained and more ingrained. And you have more evidence because what we didn't talk about is between zero and five, zero to seven years old, you are searching the world over. You're looking at you're in.
You are observing everything and you're making interpretations and those interpretations get lodged in your subconscious brain. And so from seven to 14, you're proving that hypothesis that you came up with. And as you prove that hypothesis, all you're really doing is looking for familiar. You're not a real.
So you're like, yep, I knew it. Yep. I knew it. Yep. Yep. Yep. See, see, see. And so you gather all this data that says, yes, what I believe about money is true. And then from 14 to 21, you solidify those ideas. And so now as an adult, you're taking them through and you're just making them more ingrained and more ingrained and more ingrained.
So if you slowly get this money, you're just, again, going through proving that hypothesis over and over and over again, and your brain is believing it and saying, yes, your brain is. Wants to believe you. It wants to agree with you. So it's like, yep, I told you. Yep, yep. We agree. I'm so glad we had this conversation.
That's what your brain says. And then you continue up and now you have, let's just say 30 million. You have $30 million. You worked all your years creating this wealth and nothing changed. The, the millionaire, the billionaire, um, Glen Stern I think is his name. He tells a story of when he had his wife driving a Bentley.
And he tells her, don't go through the toll rolls. They're too expensive. That would be me as well. You can, you can say it's just 10 minutes more to go the other way. You're talking about 6 or whatever. I don't know what the New Jersey, New York tolls are, but about 6, right? He can, he can afford 6. And so those emotions are still there and they get taken with you to the top.
So to speak. Um, there does sometimes come a time when everybody around you starts to point out. Why did you buy the red peppers and, and the green peppers and not the red peppers, and they're so frustrated with you. She could easily make this dinner with green peppers. Is so ridiculous that she cannot forgive you.
And now it's nighttime and you want to have sex. And she's like, no, because I asked for red heifers. And you're like, this is so dumb. And she's like, no, that's so dumb. Right. And then you're like, you know what? I have to address this. I really kind of bought those red peppers, right? Because that sex is what gets a man really thinking.
And so this happens so often. And one thing that we didn't address, and I think you talk about on the show, um, is There is, I've talked a lot about heterosexual, you know, he, she, and, and I've also talked heavily about the man being the breadwinner. But the two things we haven't talked about are same sex couples.
And we haven't talked about if the woman Is the breadwinner. And I know I just, you know, asked myself a question. Um, I didn't even let you ask me. No, no, I think it's important that we talk about these two areas because they come with a certain set of emotions. And there's one more layer adopted children.
I'm an adopted parent. I attracted my, when I first started my practice, that's who I worked with a lot. Cause there's a lot of money that goes into adoption and a lot of emotion that goes around of, you think about it, buying a baby, right? There's a lot of emotion around that. And then there's the, um, there there's just so many decisions.
And so those three areas get ignored and they shouldn't have emotions with it. Cause it's just, Um, but there's a separate set of emotions for same sex couples that heterosexual couples don't have to deal with. And there is a certain set of emotions when the woman is the primary breadwinner that the other way.
And most of that is society, because society is like, um, what are you doing? Okay, well, we say, and you're like, I'm sorry, society, what are you doing in my house? Like, get out. Like, I make decisions for my house. Go now, but you can't because it's ingrained in you. We already talked about this, right? We it's ingrained in you.
So society is a part of the decision making. And sometimes one, when we talk about same sex couples or the, or the woman make it, sometimes they have two different ideas. How much society programming should be in their household. Well, we can't do that because people will say, and you know, the people, and you know what they, right?
It's like, I don't know. I don't know. They actually, I've never met them and I don't want to. So no, they are not making decisions for my household, but that can come into play a lot too. A lot of emotions there that don't get talked about. Yeah, what are, what are some of the, because I, I've, I've heard, um, well, I mean, I've got friends who, it starts off the, you know, again, heterosexual couple, married, man works, you know, women, woman quits, raises the kids to a certain age, woman goes back.
And pretty quickly eclipses the man's income. Um, I mean, I don't think I'd have a problem with that. Let's go for it. But do, I would imagine some men do. Um, and how does that affect the dynamic of the relationship that you've seen in your practice? Does it? Or do people really, you know, the identity of the male provider, um, does that, does that get threatened?
Does that cause issues? I would imagine it would. Absolutely, it can. Um, especially if the conversations are not happening along the way. So, the money conversation probably happened early. If it happened at all. Sometimes couples don't. They can be two and three years into a marriage and still not have a conversation around money.
Having money fights. But they're not having money conversations, two different things. And so if that conversation never had happened, or if it happened so long ago, that so much has changed, especially their idea of prosperity. So that goes back to your money personality. If your idea of prosperity is around earning a certain amount, and then your wife then becomes the primary owner, I mean, a breadwinner, then you're like, Holy crap, I'm no longer successful.
She is. And that, and that, that feeling of inadequacy is going to come out in the marriage and you did not, it's not conscious, you know, you're not consciously angry at her, but it comes out in small, you know, micro aggressions. Oh, you know, you gotta go do that thing. Your little job. My job is little. Oh, did I say little?
I did. I mean, your big job. Yeah. You know, you're a big boss now. Right. And even either way, right. It's like, cause you know, you're a big boss. Now you gotta do that thing. And you have that, that little company of yours, you run lady. It's like, Oh, my company is pretty big. I employ so and so amount of people, you know, it's like, so those little microaggressions come out and that affects.
The marriage. However, if you can have the conversations along the way, if you can say in that same sex couple, how, how much are we focused on, you know, trying to be, you're the wife or I'm the wife. Who's the wife? You know, like, focusing on that. Who stays home and with it? We, we, we don't fit into society.
If we can just say we don't fit into society. So how do we are going to stand out? How okay are we with standing out? And what is it that we want to do in our household that makes us a family? We don't have to be called husband or wife at all if we don't want to. And if we're out in the week and people say, Oh, is there a wife?
And you're like, I have a husband. Wait, but you're a husband. Yes. We don't have to talk about it. Just go finish your sentence. You're probably curious. We can talk about it later. Just keep, keep talking. Right. You have the ability, the right to say, I don't have a wife. I have a husband. And it is not a thing.
We are not about to make our relationship right now about me being a same sex couple. You, we were talking about something completely different. And now that you know that about me now, all of a sudden, that's what we want the conversation to go. No, let's continue to talk about the White Sox. Or whatever it was when you're talking about, you know, and so you are able to do that, but you have to be completely confident in the decision you made to do that.
And that comes from your, you saying no to society, but that's the work of financial therapy because you can't say no to society because you're trying to stay alive and be loved. I would imagine. You know, going back to, you were going through the very early development pieces, right, and then you're, you're thinking forward at a certain age, you're like, I'm going to go try to do this, or maybe there's a number, like I had at one point, or maybe there's just a status, or maybe you don't even worry about it because you don't come from that, but Is there a, a thing, uh, um, where let's say you reach the level of your parents or the way you were raised, and it feels like if you reach that you kind of have a blueprint already.
'cause that's how you were raised. When you exceed that, is is the, is that where the, the disconnect or the, um, the, you know, the, the, you know, it's kind of the. The unknown, right? You, you, you reach the horizon and there's more on there. And then how do you handle that? Does that happen a lot or, or not as much as I think?
You know, that's how I get it. Like, if you're like my dad, my mom, my family, I was raised in this way with this type of house, this type of whatever, but now I'm beyond it. Is that when to go talk about this or is it, you know, before it can be, okay, that could be a very triggering event. So that's what goes back to the triggering events.
I talked about you're lying in the bed. You want to have sex. You didn't buy the red peppers. And this is a triggering event, right? So that could be a triggering event. The moment you find out. Realize, oh shoot, I've passed my parents. And that can mean several different things. If you had a very dominant parent who didn't really want you to be successful, who wanted to continue to hold on to that idea that they were the parent and they were the successful one, and you pass them up, there can be some, um, you know, More so negative emotions around that.
And on the other side, there can be positive emotions. Like, wow, I did this. Like I passed them, my parents, this is what they wanted. This is why they sent me to, you know, the fancy school or whatever. I did it. And okay, but can I keep it up? You know, there goes that, you know, fear and the doubt and all of those things that come in.
However, if you're in the lack based emotions, we didn't talk a lot about these, but the lack based emotions is that it's still not enough. It's still not enough. It's still not enough. Like I have to 10 X my parents. I have to, you know, whatever you have in your head, it really just goes back to your idea of prosperity.
So if your idea of prosperity was my dad made a million or my mom made a million, I've got to make 10 million, but you only make. You're like, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it, but you made 5 million. Like, can we, can we celebrate, can we celebrate that? You know, but if it, if it's not the 10 that you had in your head, it's nothing.
It's all or nothing kind of thing. Um, also when it comes to, like, I, I have a lot of clients that when we, you and I just already talked about this, where six figures was the thing, like if I could just make six figures and then they get there and they're like. It's not, this isn't what I thought it was going to be mainly because I can't afford that Lamborghini.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, some of it can be about inflation, but some of it's just about childlike thoughts, right? You just didn't know what a hundred thousand was. And so they get to the six figures, even that's to say they at 200, 300, 000, and they still feel broke. And they're like, wait, I said, six figures.
It's not six figures. So what is it? And now they're just confused and confusion is not a good feeling to most people. Most people do not like confusion. Clarity is what we're all looking for that gives us peace of mind. It's clarity. And so when you're in confusion, that is another time where you're like, I do need to talk to somebody.
And a traditional therapist is having their own money. Challenges that they are not able to talk to a millionaire sometimes about an actual money problem, unless they're trained in financial therapy. So now you want to go and you want to talk about this confusion. And the therapist is like, you just need to be happy with what you have.
You make 300, 000 a year. You paid me 75. To have this conversation. What are we talking about? It's like, yeah. So that therapist can't even go there with you because some of these problems are too heavy for, or too complex for the therapist to unpack with you. And they are having some transference because they thought that they should be at six figures, but then they took on this job.
The starving artist or the servant, you know, and I took on this public service job and I can't make a lot of money. I just have to serve. I can't do this for money. I have to do this for the heart, the love of it. And that's going on in the therapy room. And so that we really never get. To the real challenge of, I thought six figures was more than it is, which is an easy conversation for me to have, because of course you did, because from zero to seven, that's what your parents told you.
If we, you maybe heard your parents say, if we could just get to six, if dad could just get that promotion and get to six figures, right? That's what you heard. It was ingraining you. So you said six figures, that's all I got to do. And we're okay. Cause that's what parents. Say it. We're okay. And so then you get to the six figures and it's not okay.
It's not enough. Yeah. Life has changed. First of all. And second of all, you also thought when you said six figures that you were going to get that Lamborghini and then, you know, all the people were just going to come out and praise you. And that didn't happen. And you're just normal. And you're like, wait, I wasn't supposed to be normal with six.
I was supposed to be. The man, you know, the woman and I'm, I'm not, I don't feel like the man. In fact, everybody makes six figures around me, so I don't stand out. And I, and actually don't even feel like I fit into these people. And that's a whole nother feeling. Oh yeah. Uh, I don't know if we've got time to talk about this, but, but I, but that is a fascinating, uh, uh, rabbit hole to run down is I don't even, yeah.
Uh, I don't even relate to these people. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I like to end things. Dun dun dun! Dun dun dun! Um, alright, I got one more question here before the last one. Alright, bring it on. Money emotions, uh, around scarcity. So, um, I have read um, that let's say you go from zero to something. Let's call it a million bucks.
Let's call it two million. Let's call it five million bucks. Like, not... You know, five Lamborghini level, but you know, let's, let's pretend you're at 5 million bucks in, in your, in your net worth, right? You either got a business or the 401k or whatever, right? You put it all together and a, uh, a spreadsheet or a program says you're worth 2.
million. I've read, and I've actually had friends that, that kind of then it close off and they're like, Ooh, I got to keep it. And, and, and the risk mentality that kind of got them there, the right, the, I moved across the country to take this job, um, I, I bootstrapped my own business and I sold it, or it's doing so well, do people that reach that, whatever that number, um, it seems like people can reach that number, then all of a sudden hunker down and they go, Oh, I better not lose it.
To me, that seems. Logical number one from a safety standpoint, but it also number two seems limiting Do you find that to be true? And if so, how do you handle that? Yeah, so At that point we have to then address the idea of prosperity again So it probably has changed at one point it was to get that 2. 5 million Right and now that you have the two 5 million.
Your idea of prosperity may have changed. It may be to stay here. Make sure I preserve because you were in growth mode at one time, and now you may have shifted into a preservation mode. I just at least want to stay here. I definitely don't want to go down and maybe I won't get to five minutes. I won't double this unless I, you know, something happens, but I'm okay with that.
So we have to address what now. So What now is the new question. Now I got 2. 5 million is most important to me to maintain this. Well, let's talk about the why behind that. And if we can get to the why it sounds cliche, but if we can get to the why, if it's like, well, if I lose this, then everybody's going to laugh at me.
And they're like, yep, we knew you couldn't keep it. Oh, I don't want to be like that lottery winner. Like they may have excuses or reasons like that, then that isn't about your idea of prosperity. That is fear. And so we just need to unpack the why, and the why is because this is our plan. Our plan is to leave this amount to charity, this amount to our children, this, we want to do this and we want to be able to do this by this time.
And I'm okay with shifting because In my mind, I thought it would take me to, you know, 58 to get here, even though I got here at 52, I'm okay with shifting into a more conservative way of thinking. Now I could push it to 58 and keep going, but I can't stomach that risk because I've made, I hit my goal. You know, I, I, I'm like, you know, the basketball player that plays just a little too long, you know, like.
Oh, you should have retired in year seven, you know, instead of going to year 10, they don't want to be that basketball player. They don't want to be that football player. They're like, I made it, I did it. I'm going to go ahead and shift into the preservation mode. And that is okay. If it is thought out like that and the why is there and the plan is the reason not the fear or the lag or the confusion, none of that.
Awesome. Thank you. What, um, what questions about this topic? And I'm sure there are a hundred, but what questions did I not ask about this that I should have? I think so. We talked a little bit about more money, more problems and There's this idea that you have to also have friends with money. Like once you get money, you have to have friends with money.
And if you don't, then you may not grow anymore. You might be the top of the food chain and everybody's going to take from you because now you got to pay for everybody and those friends. So I like to say you have friends with money. Problems, right? Friends with money problems. And so if you are listening and most of your friends have more money than you, that's a feeling that you're going to feel likely that you don't fit in in maybe inadequate.
You're going to be comparing yourself to them, but the same is true the other way. If you have more money than all of your friends, you're going to be comparing yourself the other way. Like, oh, well, they probably think I'm this or I'm not that, and you're going to be working really hard as you compare yourself to others.
I use this, this comparing yourself to other happens on all levels. I just use this particular, um, as an example. So somebody could be like, I compare myself to others and I'm not that so, but this is important because. Of the extreme there. So if you see that you're a millionaire, but most of your friends just have jobs, then what you're going to have to force yourself to do is to build.
I use, I usually say two communities, you're going to have a community that is going to be the community you serve, pass down some of this stuff, because if you don't, when you get to that legacy part, they're going to feel really lonely because you don't fit in and you're going to wonder. Is it lonely at the top?
Yeah, it is. If you don't take people with you, so this as, as your community of people you pour into, don't covet that information that you got. Don't covet those emotions because those emotions got you to that number and they may not have those same emotions that you have. And yeah, if you have 10 friends, only maybe two of them are going to be able to come with you, but you have to have that community that you pour into.
But on the other side of that, yeah. Wait before I go there. But when you're pouring, I'm talking about from your saucer, not from your cup. So let your cup run over and whatever is running over that expertise, that knowledge, and I am talking about your expertise, your knowledge. You may invest some money in your friends, but not from your cup.
You're gonna do that. The same money you to take to Vegas and and blow on at the casino. That's the money that you give your friends if you're gonna invest in anything they do. So from your overflow. And if when you do that, when you have a community that you can pour into, there is some significance, there is some, you know, that doesn't have to be lonely at the top, but then on the other side, you're going to need.
A community that just pours into you, like these, these people probably do have more than you. And it is okay to say, Oh, okay, this is all right, this is good. And if you have you're able to put yourself in those two situations, where, on one hand, maybe you are the most successful person in the room, but on the other hand.
You're like the poorest person in the room, even though you have 10 million, right? There's something to be said about that because you can learn or grow. And maybe you guys don't have everything in common, but you have enough in common that you can soak up whatever it is that they're pouring out and pick up some nuggets there.
So I don't know why somebody needed to hear that. I don't know why that was the last thing that we end on, but I feel like it's important that, you know, you have that kind of community. So it doesn't have to be lonely at the top. Uh, I think that was a wonderful analogy. So you're going to have to have a community where you're.
Maybe top and your cup runneth over and you share what's in that saucer. And then on the other hand, their cups runneth over and you take from that saucer. Exactly. Yep. Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that was a great way to end. Kine, thank you so much for being on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
This was so much fun. A great way to start the day. Me too. Thanks.
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