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Matt Feret (00:14):

Hello everyone, this is Matt Feret. And welcome to another episode of The Matt Feret Show, where I interview insiders and experts to help light a path to a successful retirement. If you're listening to this podcast, put a face with a voice. Don't forget you can actually watch The Matt Feret Show on themattferetshow.com and on YouTube. When was the last time you talked to your pharmacist? And I mean, really, really talked to them. If you're anything like me, my interactions thus far in life with pharmacists have been limited to something along the lines of, "Do you have any questions?" And then I mutter, "No." My guest today is Bryan Kiefer. Bryan is a pharmacist, but he is more than just a pharmacist. He's an independent pharmacist. And even more, he owns three independent pharmacies in rural Missouri, one of which was established in 1871. Another is the only pharmacy in the entire county.

Matt Feret (01:07):

He also sits on the board of the Missouri Pharmacy Association. That gives him, and fortunately us, a very unique insider's perspective into not only the ever-changing role of pharmacists and pharmacies, but also of the independent pharmacy and the role independent pharmacists play in rural America. We covered a lot of territory, including the challenges of a small business competing against large pharmacy chains and the differences in patient care, the experience of consuming healthcare in rural America, and a lot more. We touched on the industry, why his advice is to always use one pharmacy. How to actually talk to and use your pharmacist. And here's a hint. There's a lot more than just ask, "Do you have any questions?"

Matt Feret (01:48):

Make sure you listen all the way to the end because we talk about gaps in the system. And spoiler alert, Bryan told me his pharmacy catches dangerous prescription mistakes every day why using cash or drug discount cards, instead of insurance might lead to dangerous drug interactions, and the conversation wraps up with some really good advice as to how to actually use your pharmacist and wraps up with good advice for caregivers or kids trying to help their parents with their medications. Enjoy. Bryan, welcome to the show.

Bryan Kiefer (02:16):

Thank you. How you doing, Matt?

Matt Feret (02:18):

All right, so you're... I'm great. Thank you. So I was already ready to get into my question. I was jumping the gun. Bryan, I'm well. Thank you for asking.

Bryan Kiefer (02:29):

You're welcome.

Matt Feret (02:32):

All right, so you're a pharmacist. But you're a behind the counter pharmacist, but you're also a small, independent pharmacy owner. That's correct, right?

Bryan Kiefer (02:44):

That is right. We have three of them.

Matt Feret (02:46):

And you're a rural small pharmacy owner, which makes you non-chain and pretty unique, right?

Bryan Kiefer (02:55):

Yes, it does. Yeah. We've got three pharmacies. One is the only pharmacy in the county in southeast Missouri. There's not another pharmacy for 30 to 40 minutes away.

Matt Feret (03:06):

You own pharmacies, plural, but also you're behind the counter every day, right?

Bryan Kiefer (03:11):

Yeah. I'm working behind the counter and filling prescriptions and talking to patients. Yeah. I'm behind the counter.

Matt Feret (03:17):

This is not a corporate, big box, whatever you want to call it, pharmacy. This is like true, small business mom and pop pharmacy in rural America.

Bryan Kiefer (03:27):

Yeah, it is. Yeah. We've got people coming in and asking us to do everything for them. And if they want us to, we'll take their blood pressure, we'll take their blood sugars. We'll sit down and have a conversation with them. We can help them look at their insurance plans. We can do all kinds of stuff with them.

Matt Feret (03:45):

So just personally speaking, when I go get a pharmacy filled I go to the drive through or I walk up and I don't even know who hands me my pills. And sometimes I think it's the pharmacist that walks up to me and goes, "Do you have any questions?" And I go, "I don't think so." And they're like, "Okay, good." If I've ever talked to a pharmacist for more than 20 seconds in my entire life, I'd be surprised. How do you, and more importantly maybe independent pharmacies or even rural pharmacies, how is my experience different than what your customers get?

Bryan Kiefer (04:22):

Well, only one of our stores has drive-thru, for a certain reason. We think it's a little impersonal. I know it's convenient, but we like the patients to come in. We like to talk to them. They know us, we know them. I think it's just a different kind of experience.

Matt Feret (04:40):

So, what kind of experience is it, then? So, is it rural versus city versus suburbs? Or is this really small business, independent pharmacy versus someone who's just chucking pills across the counter?

Bryan Kiefer (04:57):

People enjoy coming in. People enjoy us taking care of them. A lot of them don't even want their meds synced together because they want to make sure they come in once or twice a week, be able to talk to us. Some of the older people it's part of their day. Some people come in and just sit down and have coffee. It's kind of fun.

Matt Feret (05:17):

So it's kind of a community gathering place?

Bryan Kiefer (05:20):

Yeah, sometimes it is. Yeah. It's actually kind of entertaining sometimes.

Matt Feret (05:27):

That's not the experience I think most people get at a pharmacy counter or at a pharmacy.

Bryan Kiefer (05:34):

No. I think the big chains they've got a lot of metrics to meet and they don't have time to do a lot of things. They might fill more scripts. I don't know. But I think in the rural communities and even some of the bigger ones, I think the mom-and-pop independent pharmacies are just more personable.

Matt Feret (05:55):

Talk about independent pharmacies just for second. And I don't need to... Well, I don't think either one of us want to do a us versus them or them versus us kind of thing. But I think about back to business, and you've got independent bookstores. I'm going to draw some parallels. They might be wrong. Independent bookstores, and then you had Barnes & Noble, then you had Amazon taking over the world. And then you had mom and pop hardware stores, then ACE Hardware, then Lowe's, then Home Depot. So, it kind of seems to me from outside of the pharmacy industry, that's kind of what has happened. Is that true, or are independent pharmacies still going strong? And what's the landscape out there?

Bryan Kiefer (06:36):

I think independent pharmacies are still going strong. I think people come in for the personal experience. People like to be recognized. People like to know your name. Me personally, I'd rather go to a mom and pop or an ACE Hardware, because we know the people that own ACE Hardware, they come see us. I'd rather go there than go to Lowe's. That's not to put down other people. I got two friends that are the managers at the local Walmart's pharmacies. And we hang out. I mean, they're good guys and they're good pharmacists. I just think that coming into the mom-and-pop store is just a different experience that I think more people like.

Matt Feret (07:24):

We've heard so much about, at least I have heard, so much about the closing of hospitals around rural American. And I think COVID really sped that up. Because they couldn't handle the patient volume or they were transferring people out. But even before COVID you kept hearing, or I kept hearing in the news, rural hospitals and rural providers were becoming more and more scarce. And you're in I think what I would call rural America. You said one of your pharmacies is the only one in the entire county. Talk to me a little about bit about the challenges of providing healthcare in rural counties and rural America.

Bryan Kiefer (08:01):

You still have to give personal service just like if there was a competition right across the street. I don't think you should ever let your guard down on that. Always treat your customers right. Treat them like family. Really the biggest challenges we have are maybe in the wintertime when it snows or ices and we can't get the our deliveries of our medication in. Sometimes when it's really bad out it's kind of nice that the local police and sheriff's departments will actually come and deliver our medicines to the patients if they can't get out. I mean, that's something you really don't see in the city. That's pretty nice. Everybody just helps each other out. It's a good experience. It's a good community.

Matt Feret (08:48):

Is it more difficult? You mentioned weather hazards, obviously, but is it more difficult to get people to come in in rural counties to maintenance medications to keep up with their scripts? Are there pricing... Not pricing, but cost challenges that you have to deal with more in rural areas?

Bryan Kiefer (09:07):

There is. A lot of companies if their insurance mandates them to go to a big chain, they can only get a few fills filled at our pharmacy. And then they're mandated to drive 30, 40 miles or 30, 40 minutes, one way just to get the prescription filled. When we can do it right there, but their insurance won't allow it. Some people will opt to pay cash if it's not that expensive. And we try to give them a good price.

Matt Feret (09:37):

Bryan, so how come... I mean, I get pharmacy networks because I have insurance and I have to use certain doctors and certain hospitals and certain pharmacies. So tell me on the pharmacy side of things, why is it that the big box chains are usually in, or some of them are in, and not necessarily all the independent pharmacies like yours are in network?

Bryan Kiefer (09:59):

A lot of the big chain pharmacies are owned by the insurance company. They also own the pharmacy benefit managers. So they're all vertically integrated. So they pay themselves more. So they want the prescriptions and they mandate that those patients go to the big chains. So if there's not a big chain around, they'll have to come to our place, one of our pharmacies, and they'll either have to pay a higher copay or they'll get one fill at a copay and then they're mandated to go to mail order or drive that distance in order to get their preferred copay.

Matt Feret (10:37):

So if I live close to your independent pharmacy and the next closest in-network pharmacy is a 30 or 40 minute drive away, what can I do to call my insurance company and say like, "Look, man, I want to go to this pharmacy. It's five minutes from my house. I don't want to drive 40 minutes." Is there a process I the consumer can do?

Bryan Kiefer (10:59):

Sometimes they'll provide a number on the rejection that we can get and the patient can opt out. That's happening less and less now. So sometimes it's no. Sometimes it's if you want your insulin, you need to go drive 40 miles one way to go get it because they won't cover it at our pharmacy. Or you can use mail order, and then it gets shipped in the mail. And if it's freezing, it could freeze and make it inactive. Or if it's a hundred degrees outside and it sits in your mailbox all day or on your front porch, same thing. You got these temperature excursions that the medications are being subject to. And just look at the COVID tests that the government are sending out right now. And people are freaking out and they're saying they're not working because of the temperature excursions. And it's like, "Well, they've been doing that with medicine for years and we've been complaining about it, but God forbid of COVID tests get cold and it doesn't work."

Bryan Kiefer (12:05):

So yeah, it's kind of a sad situation because some of these people, people don't believe us, but some of these people don't have transportation. They have a bus that comes around and gets them and takes them to their house and back. And that's what they have. They'll have to rely on another family member or something else to go to the nearest chain store to pick it up.

Matt Feret (12:32):

I'm listening to you going, "That's very problematic." If I'm a diabetic with no transportation or if I had high blood pressure or if I have a statin or any type of maintenance medication and A, I don't get it because of weather, or B it's got temperature maximums and minimums, that is not a good situation. Do you run into that quite a bit where somebody's got a box of hot drugs that's been sitting out in a hundred-degree weather in southeast Missouri and they're like, "Can it be used? What do I do with this?"

Bryan Kiefer (13:07):

Yeah, you can't imagine how many times a day that happens. It's insane. It's sad. Yeah. It's like, we can perform the same service. We're right here. But they won't let us. Their insurance companies, the companies they pay for to get service, will not let us perform that service. They will not pay us for it. Now on certain statin drugs, certain blood pressure medicines, a lot of them are very inexpensive and they can buy them without too much penalty through us, just at a cash price. But insulin, my God, it's been on the market forever and it's insane.

Matt Feret (13:50):

But the problem with paying something for cash price is that your insurance company doesn't know you're filling the script, typically. So for instance, I know Medicare a little bit. And if people use things like GoodRX or a discount card or come to your pharmacy and just lay out cash for a prescription, the insurance company doesn't know it. So when you're going through the stages of in Medicare situation, Medicare Part D has four stages. And you have to go through a deductible and a co-insurance, then a gap, and then a big old co-insurance. If you are paying cash to you and your pharmacy, the insurance company doesn't know you're filling it. So you actually don't get credit if your deductible's $500 and the drug costs 10 bucks, you pay out your pocket or use like discount card, you know what I mean? Okay, the insurance company still shows 500 bucks is your deductible, not 490. Because they don't know you filled it.

Bryan Kiefer (14:50):

Yeah. Correct.

Matt Feret (14:51):

Also, the insurance company, if they see the doc is telling you to go get the $10 drug, they're going to keep hammering you to go get that prescription filled so they can keep you healthy. So there's a whole bunch of problems with this whole paying cash, insurance not covering it, discount card thing. Is that correct?

Bryan Kiefer (15:07):

Yeah. That is correct. Yeah.

Matt Feret (15:10):

So I know I already asked it again, but I'm going to ask it one more time. And maybe this is the same, but what do I do if I'm living in rural America and I got 30 minute, 40 minute drive and I can't get there? I mean, can I call my insurance company and beg? Can you help me? Can the pharmacy help me? How's this work?

Bryan Kiefer (15:27):

You can. There's a girl I know who has a child with a liver transplant. And she can't get her medications filled at her local pharmacy. She has to rely on mail order. And so you got a kid with a transplanted liver relying on meds being sent through the mail. And sometimes she gets them and they're hot, in the summertime. It's sad. And oh my gosh. She's fighting all the time. It's ridiculous. But nope, no one can fill them but her mail order, specialty pharmacy.

Matt Feret (16:03):

So we've talked about mail order quite a bit. I get the feeling you don't like it.

Bryan Kiefer (16:09):

If people want to use it, I'm fine with it. I don't think it should be mandatory if someone wants to come in and use any pharmacy. If they want to use a Walmart pharmacy, if they want to use a local pharmacy, if they want to use a grocery store pharmacy, to me you should have that right because you're paying for the insurance. But if you're mandated to get it through mail order, I don't see why you should have to. And if mail order sends you the wrong thing, which we deal with all the time, or if it's lost or late, that's just another problem. Then we got to fill. Then we got to try to fill something and they say, "Well it's too soon," because they've already paid for it through their pharmacies.

Matt Feret (16:53):

I didn't even think about that. What a wreck.

Bryan Kiefer (16:55):

Oh, that happens at least daily. People come in. It's unbelievable.

Matt Feret (17:03):

Are there situations where mail order... I think you said there, I mean you alluded to, yeah. Are there situations where mail order is perfect for people? I'm thinking like I'm on a, not to give too much personal information out, but I've been on blood pressure medication for a while. It's probably all the coffee I hammer down every morning. So I mean, look, if I didn't have to get out of bed and go to the local pharmacy and it showed up and I've been on blood pressure medication for years, great. I don't want to have to go to a pharmacy. But that's a pill. I'm guessing those things won't melt at a hundred degrees or freeze and become inert at 20.

Bryan Kiefer (17:42):

Well, they still have their excursions. They still have the temperature excursions on the bottle. Not supposed to be above this or below that. It's all on there. It's probably better than insulin, if it's a little bit colder or if it gets frozen. But yeah. And if some people want to do that, if you're on one medicine and if you don't need to go into a pharmacy and if that's easier for you, you have the right to do that. Say, "Hey, just send it to me every three months. I'll be fine." But people that want to come in the pharmacy, want to come and talk to a pharmacist, want that personal experience, they should be able to do that.

Matt Feret (18:26):

Bryan, if you could change one thing, sitting from where you're sitting, what would it be?

Bryan Kiefer (18:31):

I think it would be to get rid of the pharmacy benefit managers that keep everything going to their pharmacies that they own. They say that we can participate in those contracts, but when they pay us, they're paying us literally a buck to fill a prescription when a bottle and a label costs that. We're actually lose money if we participate in some of these contracts.

Matt Feret (19:02):

So I know you're a pharmacist and I've been in healthcare a long time, but I bet most people listening and watching are like, "Wait, what did he just say? Huh?"

Bryan Kiefer (19:10):

[crosstalk 00:19:10] Exactly right.

Matt Feret (19:11):

... speak in a foreign language. So break that down for me.

Bryan Kiefer (19:14):

So the benefit managers-

Matt Feret (19:17):

What are those?

Bryan Kiefer (19:18):

The pharmacy benefit managers, they're the middlemen between the payer and the patient.

Matt Feret (19:26):

So, the insurance company. So, you got an insurance company and then I'm insured. And the pharmacy benefit managers are somewhere in the middle of here. Is that what you're saying?

Bryan Kiefer (19:34):

Yeah. They say that they're negotiating drug prices to keep everything low.

Matt Feret (19:39):

Okay.

Bryan Kiefer (19:39):

And then they get rebates back on brand name meds. So if you're on a brand name medication and it's not covered, it's because they're not getting a rebate back on it. So you have to play their game and then that's why medications require a prior authorization. You have to wait a couple days for them if the doctors are trying to get around to doing that. It's a crazy game of pay to play.

Matt Feret (20:11):

So, what would you change? So let me play devil's advocate for a second. You, I'm sure as an independent pharmacy owner have the ability to sign on with insurance companies to say, "Yeah, we want to be in network." And for that, typically what happens in healthcare. Right? If you say I'm in network, you agree to predetermined rates. So if a doctor's visit is a hundred bucks, you want to be in the network of the insurance company, maybe you say, "Okay, well you've got 10,000 people in my county that are on your insurance company plan. I'll only charge you 80 in exchange for volume." So they say like, "I'll provide a discount from off my normal rates, because I will have access to all 10,000 of your health insurance members." So I'm assuming it's the same or similar way with pharmacies.

Bryan Kiefer (21:02):

It is the same way with pharmacies pretty much. They set our prices and it's usually numbers and letters that don't make sense. It's average wholesale price and maximum allowable costs. And it's not just a flat fee. It's you got to find the cheapest medication somewhere in order to even make a small profit on some of these things. They know the cheapest price of a drug and they will pay you on that. So you have to go find this wherever they're finding this cost at. They don't update their lists like they should, their pricing lists. So sometimes we're either breaking even on a medication before even labeling it or putting in a bottle. Sometimes we make a quarter. So a lot of times we can't even fill those scripts. It's ridiculous.

Matt Feret (21:54):

So you're saying when the insurance company or a pharmacy benefit manager that handles specifically pharmacies, when they offer you a contract to be in network, if I'm reading between the lines they're not paying you enough to do business. Doesn't make sense.

Bryan Kiefer (22:10):

Doesn't make sense at all. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:22:14] How can you fill a script for a quarter when you have payroll and utilities and a bottle and a label and time involved? Keeping that script for 10 years somewhere in case you get audited on it. I mean, there's all kinds of things involved and you can't do that for a quarter.

Matt Feret (22:36):

So how does Walmart do it? Or how does any other big box? Not picking on anybody in particular, but how do the rest of them do it?

Bryan Kiefer (22:44):

Well, I mean some drugs you get paid better on. They say that, "Oh, you got to do more of those." Doesn't make much sense sometimes

Matt Feret (22:55):

How come independent pharmacies don't sign these contracts. Are they not offered the contracts by the big insurance companies? Or are they offered and the rates that they're offering are entirely too low? How does that work?

Bryan Kiefer (23:07):

They're all offered. Sometimes we just won't sign them, because they're horrible. Yeah.

Matt Feret (23:12):

You, meaning, how much you're getting paid from the insurance company and the way the pharmacy benefit manager is too low in order to operate.

Bryan Kiefer (23:19):

Yes. Yeah. Sometimes we won't even sign those contracts if we're signing them by ourselves. We look at their formulas and it's just like we can't even stay in business with that. So they're going to push them to their own place and say, "Well, you wouldn't sign the contract." It's like, well, there's no way we can. Just for an example, for an ADVAIR inhaler for COPD or for asthma, brand name was mandated, the insurance company would not let us fill the generic. Copay came back around $400 for a brand name inhaler, because it was going towards the deductible. The generic inhaler cost us 65 bucks. We said, "Hey, you can have this for under $80. Same thing. It won't go towards your deductible because your insurance will not cover this medication, they're only going to cover the brand." And so the guy bought it. We're not making extravagant amounts of money. We're making 12 to 15 bucks. Just enough for us to keep our doors open. We're not asking for the world.

Matt Feret (24:30):

How much more prevalent is mail order going to become in the future? Do you see it increasing or decreasing or staying the same? We hear about companies like Amazon getting in into this. We hear, I mean-

Bryan Kiefer (24:42):

Mark Cuban. Yeah. He's getting into this.

Matt Feret (24:44):

Is this the wave of the future? Are our local independent pharmacies in rural America being phased out? Or is there still a role?

Bryan Kiefer (24:52):

I think there's still a role. This has been happening for years. People keep saying that it's going to go away, local pharmacies. But I don't think so. I mean, I think people want to come in and get it right then. They want to ask questions about it. They don't want to wait. They don't want the mistakes made. They don't want it out in the freezing cold. But there's people that would love to have it mail ordered, and that's their choice. I think choice is the big thing. If you want it that way, that's fine. I get stuff mailed to me. I'm in a coffee club, you get a coffee every month. It's kind of nice. That way you don't forget to buy it.

Matt Feret (25:37):

But it's not as simple as coffee because it's-

Bryan Kiefer (25:40):

No, it's not. It's... Yeah. This can keep you alive. That's exactly right. Yeah. But there's also people that because of the price of insulin's so high that there's people that don't take as many units as they should just to make it last longer. And some of the generic insulins aren't covered by insurance companies. Lantus has a generic that's a fourth of the price I believe. It's pretty cheap, but insurance companies won't cover it.

Matt Feret (26:10):

But how does that happen? It doesn't make any sense to me. And again, I've been in healthcare a long time on the insurance side of things. But that doesn't make any sense to me, Bryan. How can something be a quarter of the price and not be covered?

Bryan Kiefer (26:24):

Because they don't get rebates back on it. So if they're not going to make money off rebates, why put it on the formulary? Even if it's generic, just like that ADVAIR inhaler, same thing.

Matt Feret (26:36):

What else should I have asked, given our audience that I didn't? Well, how about this? How do you help mom and dad, or mom or dad, or a loved one, if they live two states, three states over and you're trying to make sure they're adhering to their medication or that they're not taking something that's going to get them sick? How do you do that?

Bryan Kiefer (26:57):

Well if they live in our town we can deliver to the patient. We can make sure that they're getting everything filled. If the mom and dad say it's okay, we can discuss it with the kids and tell them, "Hey, your mom hasn't gotten her cholesterol medicine in two months. She said she doesn't need it. What do we do?" But of course, we have to jump through the HIPAA hoops and make sure we're not doing anything wrong. As long as the mom and dad say that that's-

Matt Feret (27:36):

So how do I do that, Bryan? So if I've got my mom several states away and she's on 15 meds and I'm worried about her, do I call her pharmacist or do I call her pharmacy and be like, "Look, I'm trying to make sure she's showing up, it's getting delivered, she's taking them." What should I do as a caregiver with the pharmacy or the pharmacist? How does that happen?

Bryan Kiefer (27:58):

Well, you can also ask us to do compliance packaging and we can put it all in for morning, noon, evening, bedtime doses. And it's all right there. We can do that for people, just like they do on some of the mail order sites. What's that packaging place called? Something packed? Anyway.

Matt Feret (28:24):

Oh, PillPack.

Bryan Kiefer (28:25):

PillPack. Yeah. We can do the stuff just like PillPack. Put it in different times of the days, put all their medicines in one thing and they can take it all, make sure they're compliant. We can discuss it with you and make sure that they're taking everything that they should.

Matt Feret (28:42):

So if my mom or my dad or my loved one is several states away, I think what I'm hearing you say is call the pharmacy, call the pharmacist. There's probably some form I got to fill out that says mom or dad says it's okay for me to talk about their healthcare. Do I have to give you a healthcare power of attorney? Or is this just a form? How does that happen?

Bryan Kiefer (29:00):

They can sign you off on their HIPAA form and make sure that we can talk to you about it and be fine.

Matt Feret (29:06):

All right. So that's helpful.

Bryan Kiefer (29:08):

Or if you have their power of attorney, we can do that.

Matt Feret (29:11):

Oh, all right. So it's a good idea, right? I mean, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing it's probably pretty good idea.

Bryan Kiefer (29:17):

No, it's a very good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure that your loved ones are being taken care of. Find the local pharmacy there that will deliver to your mom and dad that can put it in compliance packaging, then make sure that they take it every month.

Matt Feret (29:35):

Sounds like pretty solid advice.

Bryan Kiefer (29:36):

We can set them up an account and yeah, it's pretty, pretty easy. We do it all the time. That's why we-

Matt Feret (29:45):

[crosstalk 00:29:45] Yeah, I don't think a lot of people know that, Bryan.

Bryan Kiefer (29:47):

Yeah, I know. But we do it every day, so we think they do. So we can probably be educated more on it too, make sure that we're doing everything that we can.

Matt Feret (30:02):

Thank you very much for the time, Bryan. This has been awesome.

Bryan Kiefer (30:04):

Yeah. You're welcome.

Matt Feret (30:05):

Anything else that I should have asked that I didn't?

Bryan Kiefer (30:08):

I don't think so. I mean, if I come up with it, we can do another show.

Matt Feret (30:11):

That sounds awesome. I can't wait. Thanks very much. Have a great day, man.

Bryan Kiefer (30:17):

Hey buddy. Good seeing you. Thank you.

Matt Feret (30:19):

All right. Thanks Bryan. My thanks to Bryan Kiefer for a really interesting peek into the wild and wonderful world of pharmacy and pharmacists. Check out the show notes and websites discussed during the show at themattferetshow.com. And of course, please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice. I'd also really appreciate it if you'd subscribe to The Matt Feret Show YouTube channel, which you can get to through themattferetshow.com, or just by searching for The Matt Feret Show on YouTube. Until next time, to your wealth, wisdom and wellness. I'm Matt Feret, and thanks for tuning in.

Matt Feret (30:58):

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Matt Feret (31:57):

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