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Introduction by Matt Feret

Matt Feret:

Hello everyone. This is Matt Feret, author of Prepare for Medicare and prepare for Social Security Insiders, guidebooks, and online course training series. Welcome to another episode of The Matt Feret Show, where I interview insiders and experts to help light a path to successful living in midlife retirement and beyond. Courtney, welcome to the show.

Courtney Boyer:

Thanks, Matt. I'm excited to be here.

Matt Feret:

Happy to have you here. So tell everybody what you do, how long you've been doing it, and how you help people.

Courtney Boyer:

Sure. So, I am a relationship and sexuality expert, and I'm also the author of Not Tonight, Honey: Why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and What We Can Do about It. And I have been doing this for, well, I've been in the sexuality field for about 15 years. I'm a trained mental health and sex therapist, and then I switched over to being a life coach. And so I've kind of combined the two to help individuals and couples infuse creativity and passion and purpose back into their lives.

Relationships in Midlife

Matt Feret:

Okay, that's a very broad topic. So let's talk about relationships first. Obviously, you've got a couple of big key markers in life, right? You've got birth, you've got markers in school, markers in career, you have relationships, you have marriage or not and just partnering- or I guess solo. And then you've got ages and stages, so then you've got marriages, you've got maybe kids, you've got jobs. And then not to fast forward too quickly, but then death, right? I mean the big life moments. Divorce may be in there as well. So talk to me about how those things progress over time. And maybe we'll just start with marriage or couple them and relationships and how they evolve over time or how you've seen them.

Courtney Boyer:

So I predominantly work with individuals around midlife. And so right now what I see is a lot of couples who have been married for 10, 15 years and are kind of at the point where they are not wanting to be married anymore. Nobody comes to me when their relationship is solid. Very rarely will I get those individuals who just want a little tweak. It's usually individuals who are like, our next call is the divorce lawyer. And so the midlife is typically a time where people start to reassess and they start to look at their relationship with themselves. They start to notice like, “Hey, I'm closer to death than I am to birth.” And that can cause some existential crisis in some individuals, midlife crisis, whatever you want to call it, where they start to really evaluate their relationship with themselves, their romantic relationships, their relationships with their loved ones. And that can be a tough thing to navigate for a lot of people.

Matt Feret:

And in midlife, I would imagine there are some common triggers. Are there some not so common ones as well, or things that people listening or observing in themselves or their spouses or partners that they might relate to.

Courtney Boyer:

In terms of triggers? I think usually around this time, parents are to the point where their kids are starting to get older and they're more independent and the marriage is less functional in terms of what their purpose is. So the purpose was to create a family, to raise a family. Now they're almost complete with that, and so they're starting to reevaluate that primary romantic relationship, that marriage. And so I think a trigger might be kids hitting middle school, high school, graduating, empty nesting, and now they're really start to face like, “Oh, this is the partner I picked 20 years ago. I’m not sure if I love this choice still.” And so that can obviously cause some reflection and some issues.

Matt Feret:

Is it normally the woman or the man in a heterosexual relationship who normally has that moment, or is it both?

Courtney Boyer:

So what I've been seeing now is a trend among women. So, women in their forties, mid-forties, early fifties, are really tired of settling. And so, I think what happens in a relationship is you find a partner that is stable and is a good provider, but then also I grew up in a generation where almost all women work. It's a double income household. Women aren't as dependent on their in heterosexual partnerships. They're not as dependent financially on their male partners. And so, they have this independence, and as they have started to complete the initial investment of that relationship of raising kids together, they're starting to see less satisfaction in their sexual or romantic aspects of their relationship. They might not see effort on their partner's part. There's not a connection anymore. And so then they start to pull away, and I see more women filing for divorce and more women wanting to end a marriage because they're really fed up.

Matt Feret:

I've heard the phrase, I actually heard it when I was really early into my marriage, you either grow together or you grow apart. I can certainly see how a fifteen, twenty-year time span of perhaps different careers, perhaps moves, perhaps children, there’s a lot of attention that could be focused on other things rather than the couple and growing together. Is that true?

Courtney Boyer:

Oh, absolutely. Yes. There are so many things competing for your attention, and if you are not intentional about your primary relationship, your romantic relationship, it will deteriorate.

Matt Feret:

So let's say I'm early in my marriage as a part of a couple. How do I think about this? Let's say I've been married five years. How do I think about this in terms of- I guess work isn't really the right phrase, since it's supposed to be romance and love- but how do I work on this so that we do continue to grow together?

Courtney Boyer:

But I think that's actually a misnomer, that relationships or romantic or love doesn't require work. I think that's, I'm not just calling you silly, but I think that that's a silly idea that it's no different than anything else. Even a job that you love, you still have to put in work to it. You still have to approach it with intention and you still need to learn. And so one of the things that I encourage couples to do is to really to always learn, to always be open-minded to learning more about your partner, to never assume that, well, we've been together for 30 years and this is just how they are.

It's almost like, “Well, I bought the cow. I'm going to put her out to pasture.” And I know that that sounds like a terrible analogy, but I see so many relationships approached like that where there's no effort put in. It's like, “Well, I mean, why would I need to seduce him? We're just going to have sex anyways.” It's like, sure, yep, okay. But maybe we could make it a little bit more fun, or maybe we could put in the work. But people don't want to put in the work if they don't think that they're going to get a return on their investment.

Matt Feret:

That's more clinical than I thought it was. I've flashed up E-Trade or something like that in my brain. It's an investment, huh?

Courtney Boyer:

Yes. Relationships are an investment. I mean all kinds, but especially a marriage. I mean, it's emerging of not just two souls or hearts or whatever, but two lives, two bank accounts, two incomes, two retirement plans, two sets of family's values. So it is an investment. Even dating relationships, I mean casual, that's a different approach, but I think anything, even a friendship is an investment. You are investing your time, your energy. A lot of times when people hear that word, investments, they automatically just go to money. But we're investing our health, we're investing our values, we're investing our heart. There's so many more things than just money that we can invest.

Matt Feret:

How much of the 15, 20 year existential crisis, forties, fifties, is about investment in the relationship and the love, and how much does it have to do with sex?

Courtney Boyer:

You mean in terms of dissatisfaction?

Matt Feret:

Yeah, I'd say satisfaction, intimacy. There's got to be a friendship. There's got to be, “I get along with you,” and then there's got to be, “I'm paying attention to you, and you're paying attention to my needs and wants, and I do little things for you.” And then there's the physical manifestation of love, which is sex. Can you have one and not the other? Do you have to work on one before the other happens? If the sex is horrible and you're not having it, but you're in love, will it work? Or in the other way, if it's a romantic, wonderful, beautiful, lovely friendship, but the sex isn't satisfying or not there, do they have to work in tandem? What's that kind of relationship?

Courtney Boyer:

So there's a couple of things that I want to unpack there. So the first is, yes, you can absolutely have love without sex and you can have sex without love. And a lot of times we assume that both are present in a marriage and because what society tells you and instills in you. Yes, of course you'll love your partner and desire your partner and want those things. And most people expect it to fade over time and kind of settle into a rut or routine or whatever. But I think I've worked with couples who love each other but are in a sexless marriage. And I've worked with couples who have phenomenal sex, as they describe it, but they don't really love each other there in a marriage. They're in their relationship for different reasons.

And so one of the things that I work with my clients is I don't believe that there's a cookie cutter relationship style or relationship model for everyone. So there are some couples and some families or relationships where it is going to look like the traditional model. We got married, we have love, we have sex occasionally, and we have this family. And most important is we prioritize certain things. And I think that that's something that couples really need to be honest about is, what is my priority in this marriage? Is my priority to raise children? Is my priority to have a solid retirement plan? Is my priority to have a community so that as we age and our parents age, we have a community around us to support us? Is it to have really great sex and to have lots of pleasure? Is it to explore?

There's no right answer to that question. So, I think what I would encourage your listeners to do, no matter where they're at in their stage of a relationship, or even if they're single and desiring a relationship, is consider what the goal is for a relationship. And that it is okay to change. I think back to when my husband and I have been married for 18 years, we have three kids, and I remember when we first got married, you have kind of an overarching goal when you're in your twenties and idealistic of what your marriage is and should be. Those start to change depending on those milestones. It's like, “Okay, well, traveling the world with three little kids at home is probably unlikely right now. So that's not my priority. My priority is to survive, and to potty train, and to teach my kids to read, and to still keep this marriage together because I value my co-parent and I value my partner.” And then as life changes and different things happen, the goal or the priority of that relationship will also change. What I see happen a lot is that people get kind of swept up and they allow life to dictate what those priorities are instead of identifying what they desire them to be and then creating a life that reflects that.

Courtney Boyer on How to Approach Relationship Check-Ins

Matt Feret:

That's really good. Are we talking lists here? Do we talk once a year at the anniversary dinner? When's a good time to talk about this stuff?

Courtney Boyer:

So for my husband and I, one thing that we do every anniversary dinner is we do a check-in. So that's our big check-in. But we do, we are much more intentional as things come up to be like, “Hey, we really need to check in about this.” Or if he has a goal. Right now we're looking at buying a house here in Germany, and so we have on a date night, which we're very intentional about is, “Hey, we need to sit down and talk about what that looks like. What's the purpose? Why are we buying? Is it for an investment property?” All of these different things. But for us, the big reflection and also celebration happens on our anniversary dinner. I think people just, they go to dinner because they're supposed to go to dinner like, “Hey, yeah, we've been married for 15 years. Great, awesome. Here's a little chocolate cake with a candle in it and blow it out and make a wish.” But I'm a very intentional person. So knowing that, hey, this is a milestone. We are looking back on our past year. I go through all of the spheres.  Financially, how did we do? Did we meet our goals? Did we feel like we spent our money? Well, what could be improved sexually? Did you feel like I met your sexual needs? Is there anything about your sexual needs that I'm not meeting? What could I do to meet those? We go through every single category and give each other permission to share and to listen and not get defensive.

Matt Feret:

Do you find it harder for men or women to do that? I'll speak personally here. We do the anniversary dinner and then there's a bit of a, well, how'd the last year go? What would you change? But I certainly don't go through a list that you went through. If it's hard for people, they haven't been practicing it for 15 or 20 years, what's a good way to do it? Because I would imagine, not only could it be awkward to talk about some of those things at dinner with other people around you, but it might be hard. Especially if there are issues or problems that are more than a year old, especially when you start doing it. So is there a good approach, at least for the first time?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah, I think proposing it like, “Hey, I was listening to a podcast, or I was reading a book.” Those are really great ways to introduce anything that's kind of like a third-party buffer. So I think saying, “Hey, going forward, I think it'd be really fun if we celebrated three things that we felt like we each did well last year. I love how this expert or this person, talked about it in a book and how it made their marriage stronger. I would really love to help make our marriage stronger.” So you're giving a reason why you're doing it, you're proposing an improvement, and then you're also sharing where it came from. So not all individuals need all three of those.

For some couples, they're like, “I don't care why or where you got it, sure, let's try it. This'll be fun.” But for other couples, especially when they're set in their ways, sometimes they can be a little hesitant and having all three of those aspects helps open their mind to doing something different. It will be awkward, just admit it and lean into the awkwardness. Obviously, my specialty is in sexuality, so I can talk to anybody about it at any point of the day. And so I know that that's not normal. I know that most people don't feel like they can pass the butter, “Did you watch porn today or did you masturbate?” Those are not normal conversations. And so, try to start small, and know that it's going to be uncomfortable at first, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

Courtney Boyer on Common Issues Faced by Women in Relationships

Matt Feret:

You mentioned earlier on in the show that normally people come to you when things are on fire. Normally people don't come and say everything's great, except for I'd really like them to take the trash out without being prompted. I mean, it's not small stuff. So let's go with females first. When it's there, what are the most common female complaints and observations?

Courtney Boyer:

He's emotionally unavailable. Hands down. What I see is that I have a lot of female clients who are like, “I am trying to connect with my spouse, my partner, and I feel like I'm pulling things out of him. He's just never developed an emotional intelligence and never developed that emotional toolbox.” And because they were so busy with kids, and diapers, and t-ball, and band concerts and stuff, that was okay. They were able to kind of kick it down the road. And now that they’re in high school and my kids don't want to hang out with me, I guess I'm stuck with you. And they're trying to have these emotional conversations and they're meeting a wall, and so then they come and they're like, “I'm feeling disconnected. I don't want to have sex with him. I don't want to touch him. This isn't fun.” And it's not romance per se, it's really the word connection that comes up so much for my female clients.

Matt Feret:

You say emotional connection, what does that mean? Give me examples of what emotional connectivity means.

Courtney Boyer:

Vulnerability. So being able to come in and say, “I'm really scared about my mom. Her health isn't doing very well.” Instead of, “Yeah, I think my mom was in the hospital or something, and I don't know, I'm not sure. I'd probably need to go and check on her.” It's almost like the surface level versus what's really going on. “How do you feel about that? How do you feel about her test results?” “I don't know. I mean, can't do anything about it.” “Sure, right. But I'm asking you how you feel about it. Tell me what's going on. Are you scared? What kind of pressure is that putting on you? Because then are you afraid that you're going to have to now be her caregiver because your dad's not able to do that?”

And so it's really about opening up that emotional box that's inside of every one of us. And for a lot of men, they haven't needed to, they haven't been raised that way. They don't have the practice. And so now that their female partners are going to therapy and addressing unresolved traumas or listening to personal development podcasts, when then they try to apply that to their own lives and in their own marriages, they're hit with that wall because their partner may not be as on the same path as them. Then they get frustrated and, “I'm trying to get him to talk to me about how he's feeling about this because there those feelings are there, but he's just not willing to go down and do the work.” Does that make sense?

Courtney Boyer on Common Issues Faced by Men in Relationships

Matt Feret:

Yeah, it does. So, what about on the male side? What are the normal male complaints or observations?

Courtney Boyer:

I think one of the big things is they can sense that their female partners have disconnected. It's like this weird dance. The woman's trying to connect with her husband, and he doesn't know how or he's scared to or lacks the tools. And so, then he's kind of stuck so she's frustrated and she'll pull away, and he feels that pulling away, but then he doesn't know how to reconcile it, so it's like this weird kind of dance. I see the disconnect of, “She doesn't want me in her life.” They can feel the resentment. I have seen my male clients complain to me about the lack of physical affection and the lack of sexual intimacy. He sees physicality as a way to connect, but she doesn't want to connect physically because her emotional needs aren't getting met. And so then it's just kind of like this cycle.

Matt Feret:

If someone comes to you in this situation fifteen, twenty years in, how successful is it at that point? You said they come to you with a dumpster fire. How successful is it in terms of therapy working?

Courtney Boyer:

So one of the first questions I always ask is, “How motivated are you, on a scale of zero to ten to save this marriage?” And I'm like, “I want you to be completely honest with me because one, I can tell if you're lying because it will show up in your results.” I always tell them, “I don't care if you want to get divorced or want to stay together. You tell me what you want, and we will figure it out and we will come up with a game plan.” I am a hundred percent confident that I can help save a marriage. I am really good at what I do. It cannot, though, work when one of the individuals is apathetic. So people always say that the opposite of love is hate, but I believe that the opposite of love is indifference. So if you have one of an individual that comes and says, “She's such a jerk, and she just never does blah, blah, blah.” I'm like, yes, okay! I can work with this, right? I can work with this frustration. There's passion there, right? There's care. If I have somebody who's like, “I don't really care if we have sex again, I mean he can go do whatever, girl, have a good time. It doesn't matter to me.” I can't work with that. I fully upfront say, “If you want the easy way out, call the divorce lawyer.” However, those problems that you're having in this relationship do not magically go away. They will manifest in other relationships. So, I encourage you to do the work. If you are not willing to do the work, you will not have success. If you continue to use the skills and tools that you're currently using now, you will not have success. I have seen incredible transformations, it's been amazing, but I'm not going to lie and say that it's super easy.

Matt Feret:

How do you feel about separation?

Courtney Boyer:

I'm a big fan of it. I think that sometimes time apart is a really good opportunity for individuals to heal, to work on their own things, and that they can come back together stronger. I think that there are boundaries required in separations, really, really good communication, really clear expectations. That is something I don't recommend doing on your own. I think anytime you are changing your relationship style or your relationship structure you need to incorporate a professional to help guide you through that.

Courtney Boyer on How the Reproductive Cycle Impacts Relationships

Matt Feret:

How does menopause factor into this age and stage? Does it?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah. Oh, I mean, absolutely. Anytime you're dealing with hormonal changes, I mean it's not just a hormonal stage too. There's also the word grieving process comes up of, “My body was created to create and carry and sustain life.” And when that is taken away from you, whether you're 35 or 55, you enter that process or that stage of life, it's like there can be a mourning for what was. Maybe you never had children, but you wanted it. Now that's not even an option anymore in terms of biological. Seeing your body change and seeing that real physical manifestation of it can be really triggering for a lot of women. And then again, for some women it's years and years and years long process. And that can be really frustrating because they don't know their body anymore and now they're adjusting to something new and then they see their body differently, and then that affects their self-worth and their self-esteem. And then that affects their relationship with their friends and their partners. And so yes, I mean it's a very affected or a very prominent life milestone that affects so many things.

Matt Feret:

So then to continue that, what can I guess in again, a heterosexual relationship, what can women do or be cognizant or aware of while that process is happening and what can their spouse or partner on the male side do along those same lines?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah. One thing that I'm really have been impressed with recently is more men understanding how a female body works, understanding our menstrual cycles, understanding the menopause phase for so many generations before it was like, oh no, oh no, we're not touching that. We're not talking about that.

Matt Feret:

The births happen in another room. You smoke a cigar in the waiting room versus now it's very involved.

Courtney Boyer:

Yes, hands-on. I'm a big fan of sharing your menstrual chart. If you cycle track with your partner, they should be aware of where you are.

Matt Feret:

I don't know if I'd be a fan. I haven't really ever thought about it. Why do I want to know that? Honestly.

Courtney Boyer:

Because the different phases affect a woman significantly. So if she's in her follicular phase, most women are super, super horny in their follicular phases. And so knowing that, okay, I'm going to get me some. I know that all I need to do is just give a little shoulder rub and I'm good. Or knowing that she's a few days before menstruation and that is when her hormone levels are at their lowest, she's probably going to be super moody. She's going to be on edge, she's going to be tired, she may physically not feel well. So then I just maybe need to be less reactive to some of her comments or just kind of be aware and try to be more supportive. So yeah, even if you're not trying to conceive, being aware of where your partner is in their menstrual cycle is a relationship game changer, honestly.

Matt Feret:

Well, now that you put it that way, it sounds like a pretty handy cheat sheet.

Courtney Boyer:

It's a cheat sheet. I kid you not. And it's also important too, because we as women should be cycling about every 26 to 33 days depending. And so if you're like, you haven't had your period in two months and she's not perimenopausal, then hey, do you think maybe you should go to your doctor about that? Or there's other side effects that you're noticing, like significant weight gain or significant weight loss. You are a team. And so caring about each other's mental and physical and sexual health and wellbeing is important. And so I think, again, just being aware, it's not that you have to every day like, oh my gosh, she's on day 15 or whatever. Just like, okay, these are kind of the general of things to expect, and I want to be a supportive partner and knowing how my partner's body functions can be helpful in that. And same with menopause.

Courtney Boyer on Relationships In Retirement

Matt Feret:

Thank you for all of this. Let's move to 50, 60, 70. So let's say there's a couple where kids have flown the coop, they're in later stages of careers and later stages of life. What are the differences between midlife and late life? What are some of the differences or nuances that happen in those ages that are different than what we just talked about in the forties and fifties range?

Courtney Boyer:

I've seen with individuals, with clients and then also just in my own life with my grandparents and my aunts and uncles, is there just seems to be an opportunity to be at such a peaceful stage in that phase of life. They're starting to connect with things that they actually enjoy doing. Gosh, I remember my grandma, she would golf and she would play bridge and she'd go shopping with her friends and stuff. And then I talked to some of my friends who have grandparents who were in their seventies and eighties, and they just kind of sit at home and they don't do much and they're not very engaged. And I see the importance of community, but also one of the things that I see, especially with women, it's almost like when they hit their seventies and eighties, it's like their time to finally get to do what they want to do. And it's almost like they give themselves a permission slip. My grandma, she was in her early seventies and her two girlfriends went to Europe on their own, pre-cell phones. And she would've never done that when she was in her fifties or forties or whatever. So that's one thing that I start to see. It's almost like they come to terms with that relationship, with themselves, and really like, yeah, I only have so much time left here. I really want to use that time wisely. I really want to go and explore and try new things or try something different. And it's cool to see some people when they do. Obviously that's not the case with everybody, but that's something that I see with older adults.

Matt Feret:

Are there any issues around kicking some of this off in decades or stages, birth to death? There's a lot of them in between there, but retirement or slowing down work going, moving to part-time, work, one couple over the other. Maybe somebody early retires, maybe somebody says, I'm never going to retire. They turn 72 and they're still going strong, and they're like, I can't sit there on the porch and in a rocker. Yeah, I want to go do a month in Europe, but after that I want to get back to work. It's fulfilling. Are they a relationship and sexuality issues in those stages as well, because that's retirement, early retirement, semi working, or not at all? Those are really big moves for couples who have kind of been in a pattern of marriage, again, I'm being stereotypical, but marriage, kids school and then the fifties, forties, Hey, do we still want to be together for the next 20, 30 years of our life? And then if the answer is yes, there are still more hurdles and changes in that relationship. Can you talk about some of those and if there's a different approach at those ages and stages?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah, absolutely. So what you just said, so our brains like predictability and we don't change. So if we have been in the habit of 30 years and one partner goes to work from nine to five and comes home and the other one maybe does a night shift or has only been working and now suddenly both partners are home full-time in each other's grill all the time, that is a change that we're just not used to. And so when you're considering going from part-time or full-time or whatever to any kind of major hour cut or any type of change that will significantly alter the way that things have been running in your household, it's important to have that conversation preemptively with your partner like, Hey, I'm really realizing that I actually want to just retire. I am done. I'm tired. I don't want to work out in corporate anymore.

What are your thoughts on that? What are your concerns? Like yes, you've worked hard. I think that's great. Okay, that means that I'm going to be home now all the time. How do you feel about that? And I think that can feel like a loaded question because most people would be like, well, of course you would want your partner to say, oh my gosh, of course I'm to spend all of my time with you. And yes, we're going to bake bread together and we're going to garden together and we're going to go do walks three times a day together. And it is okay to say that concerns me or that overwhelms me because I'm so used to having 8, 10, 12 hours a day to do my own thing and to be by myself. I think it's good if we kind of have check-ins with each other or create a system or a schedule so that we're both having our needs met, but not in a way that feels inauthentic.

Matt Feret:

So you still need to plan, sit down and talk about that next stage of your relationship and your marriage?

Courtney Boyer:

Yes, absolutely. Again, I think it's that societal assumption that we've been waiting 50 years to be able to be at home and spend time with the person that we said I do to. And that's not the case for everybody. Some people really enjoy living apart, not necessarily physically living apart, but you do your thing, I do my thing, we come back together. It's what those priorities are. So again, something that we talked about before, what's the priority at this stage in our marriage? Is it exploring? Is it raising grandchildren? Is it volunteering? Is it learning a new skill? Is it only reconnecting? And if so, so one of the things I ask couples, regardless of how old they are is, and especially if they're struggling sexually, is how often would you like to have sex a week or engage in sexual activities a week? And I have them write it down separately so that they don't like, well, he's going to want to have it every day, so I need to respond this way and vice versa. And so it's the same thing in this stage of life, how many hours per day or how many activities per day would you like to spend with your spouse now that they are home from retirement? Yeah, I could do three hours a day. I could do a solid, okay, so let's compare. How can we reconcile these two numbers so that they feel good to both individuals and it reflects the priority of this stage of their relationship

Matt Feret:

In those stages? Let's move to sex really quickly. I think there's this, I had a guest on one time Joan Price, who said over a certain age, there's a societal ICH factor. She's like, and I reject that, and that's not only societal, but I can imagine with body changes and a lot more gray hair or less of it, there might be some old personal hang-ups or anything. When you move from let's say fifties into sixties and seventies, what are some healthy conversations or I guess upfront conversations that couples don't have about sex in their sex lives around themselves as a couple or a body image or how they feel, or even physical changes, obviously when you're not 18 anymore and you're 68.

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah, I think again, having those check-in conversations of, Hey, how are you feeling about our sex life? How are you feeling? Do you feel like your sexual needs are being met in this relationship? Is there something that I could do or your physical needs? I think when people hear the word sexual, they automatically think intercourse and sexual is so much more than that for some individuals just being held is meeting their sexual needs for some individuals just making out is meeting their sexual needs. So it's really important to have these conversations of, are your sexual needs being met and is that something that I can help with or is that something I can encourage you to have your needs met?

Mobility, I was like availability Mobility is something that starts to become compromised for a lot of adults as they age, and so they just physically may not be able to engage and a lot of the activities that they could when they were 25. And so you have to be creative. And so those don't needs, just because their mobility changes doesn't mean their sexual needs change. But a lot of times we kind of are like, well, that's not a requirement. Now you're just being greedy that you need to have an orgasm or you need to have somebody make out with you. No, those are a part of a lot of people's just innate desires to have human contact to desire pleasure. And so again, if you're not used to having that conversation, really start them when you're in your forties or thirties or from day one. And so when you're 75, you're not like, do you really miss oral sex?

Matt Feret:

To probably, I've never mentioned this before, but I think that was a good time.

Courtney Boyer:

I feel like we should bring it up after 40 years of marriage, but honestly, do it. Who cares? Okay, yes, it may feel silly and awkward, but some amazing things can come from those conversations. So never assume that your partner is a sexual or not into sex just because they're 70 now or 75 or whatnot. I was watching Queen Charlotte, I don't know if you've seen that, but at the end there's no spoilers, but at the end they're laying together and they're both in their, I don't know, probably seventies maybe, and they look at each other and they see, oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. They see each other when they were 25, so we may physically see your grandparents, but they may see each other still as 22 years old. And so they still want that love and care and it's so beautiful. And I think that we forget that sometimes that those people inside of us still exist and still want love and desire and pleasure.

Matt Feret:

It almost seems to me just to me, you've got spaces in a marriage and let's say a marriage is 50 year marriage, and we've all heard the 70 rich, we've heard most divorces have within three, and I think we're becoming more aware of what we talked about the first half of the show, which is post kids, they're out of the house, they're getting their career middle aged, that sort of thing. And then, I don't know, it seems as if we can almost fast forward to if you get past that stage, then you almost fast forward into, ah, the rest is bliss.

But then here's this little thing over the last few years called gray divorce, which is I guess defined 55 plus 60 because human's life expectancy, at least in the quote modern world, has been inching up for decades. And so people get hit 60 or whatever, and they go, yeah, we've been married 30 some odd years, but I've got 20 more left or 30 more left. Has gray divorce always been there or is it similar to this kind of 20 year itch, if you will, or 15 year itch? And it's just becoming now more pronounced where one of the couple or both couples go, you know what? I don't want to spend my retirement years with this person. Is that a theme you're seeing, or does it really even continue beyond?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah, I'd say yes and no. So you had asked if it had always existed. I've seen almost a silent divorce in a way for a lot of couples. So they may not fit officially divorce at 55, 60, but they checked out of the marriage and they are just kind of sailing along and like, well, we got 15, 20 more years left to suck it up, I guess, because financially dependent on this person, and I need somebody to take care of me because health and like you said, people weren't living as long as they are now. So I think that in a way that it has existed, but just not in the formality sense as it does now. So yes, I do see that great divorce of people like, yeah, dude, you're not wanting to make any. And when I say, dude, it could be duet as well, but you're not wanting to, you've let yourself go or you don't care about the things that I care about anymore and you're not willing to work on them. And I've tried to get you to work on them, and I'm looking at our last 20, 25 years of good, solid, assuming health and mobility and stuff, and you're not a partner that I want to pursue or proceed with. And so yeah, it's a thing. Absolutely.

Matt Feret:

Where does counseling, sexual or otherwise, fit in this broad spectrum? Is there something to be said for proactive merit?

Courtney Boyer:

A hundred percent. Yes. I think anytime that we can be self-aware and anytime that we can work on ourselves and expand our toolbox to be better humans and better individuals, kinder, more patient, dealing with the hardships of life that has a ripple effect. And unfortunately, it's like we would never ask that question about getting your car an oil change. Do we have to change the oil of the car? You don't have to, but if you want it to run, then yes you will. Or it's the same thing. We need preventative things like, yeah, you should probably get immunized, you should probably eat your vegetables. You should do a lot of these things to help set you up for success in the long-term. Can you still have a marriage survive? And I think that's one thing that I've started to evaluate silently. Of course, nobody wants to hear this, but I have friends whose grandparents are celebrating 50, well, I guess parents now 50, 60 years together, and they're like, oh, that's amazing.

You've been married for 50 years. And I'm like, but is it amazing? Do you enjoy being married? So really thinking about what's a successful marriage? Because I think that historically we've seen people make it 50, 70 whatever years, and we're like, that's a successful marriage. But I've seen marriages that have lasted that long and they resent each other. They argue all the time they're miserable. Is that really how we define success? If you just want me to make it to the finish line and check off 50 years, I can do that, but I don't see that as successful. And so I coming back to your question about the preemptive and stuff, that's how you make a successful relationship last. That's how you make, it's not even about lasting, it's just about being successful in those moments because two individuals who are committed to themselves show up and want to invest in something greater than themselves.

Matt Feret:

Beautifully said. Last question. Let's say we talked about grandparents and parents. Let's say we see something in our parents or in-laws or grandparents that you're hanging around at a holiday and all of a sudden they're not getting along. Is it our role? Is it part of what we can do for our parents to ask some questions to, and again, a different generation, I think you said, and it is right, mental health care is definitely getting more normalized today than it was in the nineties or eighties or seventies. If you went, something was wrong with you. Absolutely. Is there anything that we could do or should do softly, I would assume gently with our parents or in-laws when we see things maybe not going so well in a marriage, or is that out of bounds?

Courtney Boyer:

That's a good question. I think it depends on the relationship that you have prior to that situation. So if it's a very surface level conversation, like a relationship pointing something like that out is going to feel really intimate and will almost feel like a boundary violation. How dare you bring that up. We've never discussed that. I tend to err on the side of overstepping. I am not going to lie and be like, yes, I will make sure that it's appropriate. No, for me personally, individually, I would absolutely say something, but I'm also willing to be there for support. So one of the things that I think people forget is when you ask somebody a question like, Hey, is everything okay with you and dad? Be prepared to receive that answer. And so for me, I am prepared to receive that answer. If they word vomit on you and they're like, oh my gosh, no, it's not an easy, I found out he cheated on me and blah, blah, blah.

You have to be prepared to support. It's unfair. And it's unethical, I think, to be like, oh, actually, no, I actually really don't care. I was just more being polite, right? Yeah, and if you don't feel comfortable, say, Hey, I've noticed that there's been a lot of tension between you and dad. I don't feel comfortable talking to you about that, but Bob and I, or Susie and I have been seeing a therapist, and that's really helped us with our communication. So I find that people, when you share something in you, especially about something that's pretty private marriage and parenting, they see that as a little mini inspiration or even a big inspiration of like, oh, oh, well, if so-and-so can go to therapy. Oh, it's just planting that seed so it doesn't have to be a full on intervention. It could just be just like, Hey, mom, I love you, and maybe that's all you can do is that they're not going to talk about it with you.

You don't want them to talk about it with you, but you can just offer that love and support and just let them know that they're not alone. But yeah, I'm a big fan of just sliding that therapy card across or sending a text message with a, this is somebody that I really enjoy talking to, maybe you should check him out or a book. That's one of the reasons why I wrote the book that I did is because not everybody's ready to talk about sex and vulnerable things with a professional, but they can start with a book and they can start maybe with reading that book with a friend or with a partner and talking about the things in the book, and that can be the baby step to get into something bigger.

Matt Feret:

That's great. Thanks for that, Courtney. What questions about this subject should I have asked that I didn't?

Courtney Boyer:

Gosh, no, you asked a lot of great questions. I don't think anything else. Yeah.

Matt Feret:

Well, alright, thanks.

Courtney Boyer:

You're welcome.

Courtney Boyer on How to Approach Sexuality in Older Adult Relationships

Matt Feret:

Okay, well maybe then I just have one more. The sex piece, the sex piece in particular in fifties, sixties and seventies, you said open communication a lot, and then you talked about physical changes, somebody let themselves go or anything like that specifically, not only about the relationship, which we spent a lot of time talking about, but how would someone, or what are those changes in those ages and phases, fifties, sixties, seventies that are, I guess physical in nature or even desire might change, the hormones are going down, maybe one partner has got more than the other, how to have those conversations or how to approach those conversations after years perhaps of a healthy sex life, and then something changes in those ages. How would someone approach that?

Courtney Boyer:

Yeah, I think especially if you're not comfortable just owning the information, I always like to accompanying it with research. So like, Hey, I found out that my blood pressure medication causes erectile dysfunction or can cause erectile dysfunction. If that's something that is a problem for you, or it's something that bothers me. I'd like to talk to my doctor about getting a medicine that helps with erectile dysfunction. Or, Hey, I was reading this blog and they were talking about how during menopause, vaginal lubrication becomes significantly less. They recommend using a lubricant during any type of sexual activity. I think we should get a lubricant. So instead of like, oh, I've been really dry lately, I think I should buy a lube, right? There's a different way of, again, it's finding that buffer, that safety where there’s a third party almost. You’re protecting yourself, but you're also conveying the information that you need to with a purpose. So those are obviously, menopause changes things, ailments change things. It takes longer to recover from colds and sicknesses if you have a hip replacement. There's just a lot of that. You just kind of have to be creative. And sometimes people just kind of give up because they're like, I mean, it's a lot of work and it's a lot of effort, but if they know that it's worth the investment, it's worth the effort that they're putting in because they want that connection, they want that orgasm, they want whatever, then they're going to put the work in. So I think if you don't want to be sexually active, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have every right to be until your last breath. That is a part of how we've been designed. There's nothing wrong with that. It is beautiful regardless of your age, obviously, after puberty and consenting adults. But yeah, it's something that, again, to just be aware of how medications, surgeries, hormonal changes, those all have a significant effect on our mood, our physicality, our physiological responses, including our sexual responses.

Matt Feret:

Courtney, this has been really, really interesting and I'm going to guess really helpful for a lot of people. Thank you.

Courtney Boyer:

Oh, I hope so. You're so welcome. And if anyone has any questions or they want to follow up or follow me on social media, they can reach out. I’m at courtneyboyercoaching on Instagram and LinkedIn and all of the places. So yeah, I love, just a quick story. When I first got into this field, I remember hanging out with my grandma who I was really close to, and I was like, “Grams, you need to talk to your single friends because the highest rate of STIs are among people over 65 or something. I'm like, you make sure no glove, no love.” And she was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t talk to my friends about using condoms.” And I was like, “Grams, we care about them. We want them to be healthy.” So I love talking to older adults about sexual health and sexuality. It's something, again, I really think it is stigmatized and it shouldn't be. So if any of your listeners, please have them reach out to me. I'd love to say hi.

Matt Feret:

I will, and I'll put all of your links and all of your websites and book.

Courtney Boyer:

Great. Thanks, Matt.

Matt Feret:

Courtney, thanks a lot.

Matt Feret:

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